Direct Democracy Diaries Episode 3: From Signatures to Power: How Movements Get on the Ballot
This week, co-hosts Chris and Caroline sit down with Danielle Atkinson, national executive director and founder at Mothering Justice, a seasoned expert on petition gathering and movement building. The episode offers a rare opportunity to glean expertise from someone who’s prioritized deep community engagement in signature gathering amid complicated budget constraints and competing coalition priorities.
In this episode, Danielle pulls back the curtain on the world of petition gathering: What does it really take to get an issue on the ballot? Danielle shares practical insights from the planning, the patience, and the emotional resilience behind every clipboard and community conversation.
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Highlights from the episode with Danielle Atkinson:
- “For the last month, my sister and her wife, both federal employees, retired right before the administration started in December. They felt unsafe and felt like they needed to leave. So, I am working for the ability for Grayson to come home, for this to be a place that she can be safe.”
- “The message that we love to talk about is direct democracy. Like we don’t have to wait for an elected official to decide this is the right thing. We don’t have to defend their wrongdoings so that they can eventually have enough political clout to convince other people to move on this issue. With direct democracy, we can just vote ourselves a raise. We can just vote ourselves some benefits. And so that is a message that I think really, really resonates with folks:Take your power back. It was never theirs to have. And you can utilize it for the things that will mean a world of difference in your life.”
- ”We want everybody to be represented. And if everyone’s represented, sometimes those representations will clash — so prepare yourself for those conversations. Make sure your values-aligned and that those are the driving pieces of your coalition that you’re always reiterating. We want to make sure the most amount of people have access to the most amount of benefits. So, always be having that conversation.”
- “I didn’t see the wisdom of the people I loved being being utilized or appreciated. So I decided to build something new, because I thought that women of color could do it better. It felt right in my soul to do it.”
- “Continuously be thinking about: where do people not have access to representation and who? I can answer that really quickly — it’s mostly Black and brown people.”
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EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS:
- [00:00:00] Introduction to Danielle Atkinson and Mothering Justice
- [00:01:36] Danielle shares her personal and family background that inspires her organizing work.
- [00:06:56] The complexities and challenges of launching a signature gathering campaign.
- [00:11:08] How Mothering Justice ties signature collection to deeper community engagement.
- [00:13:58] Danielle’s first campaign job and how direct democracy messaging resonates.
- [00:15:49] Preparing teams and coalitions for the vulnerabilities of the signature phase.
- [00:20:02] Innovations in signature gathering, including values-based vendor models.
- [00:24:23] Lessons from neglecting to plan early for implementation and legal defense.
- [00:29:09] How BISC’s support helped challenge extractive campaign models.
- [00:33:21] Michigan’s “adopt and amend” tactic and its long legal battle.
- [00:37:18] Why high turnout for ballot measures doesn’t automatically boost candidate support.
- [00:38:55] Strategic responses to attacks on ballot measures and expanding democratic tools.
- [00:42:36] Danielle’s advice for both early-career advocates and seasoned organizers.
- [00:46:19] Writing policy as a “love letter” to her mother and broader community.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
[Caroline Sánchez-Avakian] (0:04 – 0:15)
Welcome to the Direct Democracy Diaries, the podcast where we explore the power of ballot measures and the people behind them. I’m Caroline Sánchez-Avakian.
[Chris Melody Fields Figueredo] (0:16 – 0:44)
And I’m Chris Melody Fields Figueredo. Join us as we dive deep into the stories, strategies, and successes that are shaping the future of our democracy. One diary entry at a time.
Welcome back, y’all. It’s Chris Melody Fields Figueredo, your co-host of Direct Democracy Diaries. We are so excited to have you back.
Caroline, we have already had two incredible episodes, don’t you think?
[Caroline Sánchez-Avakian] (0:45 – 1:18)
We had two of the most brilliant and inspiring people on this podcast, and today will be no different, Chris. On our last episode, we spoke to Lauren Brunzell and Sarah Parker about Florida’s “Yes on 4” campaign to protect reproductive freedom. And we talked about getting started with ballot measures, decision-making, and the importance of building a strong campaign coalition with care.
And they also talked about how they built something that is outlasting the campaign. Something that at BISC we talk a lot about.
[Chris Melody Fields Figueredo] (1:18 – 2:04)
Yeah, I really appreciated how real they were in the conversation, and they reminded us of the words of Audre Lorde, “caring for myself is not self-indulgence, it is self-preservation.” “And that is an act of political warfare.” That’s something I think we all really need to be reminded of in these turbulent times.
In this episode, we’re going to delve into another important phase of the ballot measure process, signature gathering. We aren’t just talking about the mechanics, I mean, we will do that, but we’re also going to talk about how this phase is an opportunity to build your base of supporters that can lead you to victory.
[Caroline Sánchez-Avakian] (2:05 – 2:08)
I’m excited to hear all about it!
Let’s get the show started, Chris.
[Chris Melody Fields Figueredo] (2:09 – 3:23)
We are so thrilled to be joined today by Danielle Atkinson, the Founder and National Executive Director of Mothering Justice, a grassroots policy advocacy organization that provides mothers of color in the United States with the resources, the tools to use their power to make equitable changes in policy. Danielle has extensive experience as a church-based electoral and community organizer.
She’s worked with organizations as America Votes, State Voices, Population Connection, and ACORN. She’s led organizing efforts to raise the minimum wage in Florida, where she met her husband. We might get some tea on that.
And in Michigan, Mothering Justice has led the effort to get earned paid sick time in Michigan, which first started as a ballot initiative. And she also happens to be a BISC Foundation board member and a friend. She has taught me so much about being a mama in the movement.
I’m so excited to have you on the show. Welcome, Danielle.
[Danielle Atkinson] (3:24 – 3:26)
Hello. Thanks for having me.
[Chris Melody Fields Figueredo] (3:27 – 3:34)
I am so excited. So I just gave a little bio for you to, so people know what a badass you are.
[Caroline Sánchez-Avakian] (3:35 – 3:35)
Thank you. Thank you.
[Chris Melody Fields Figueredo] (3:35 – 3:46)
Tell us more about Danielle. What motivates you? What drives you, as Ella Baker would ask us, right?
Who are your people? And what led you to this work?
[Danielle Atkinson] (3:47 – 5:43)
Yeah, I love that question. I love how we, as people, center ourselves before we have a conversation. So, I really appreciate that.
I always bring my mom into the room. She is with me now. She actually is living with me in Michigan.
But my mother moved herself and then her family to this country a year before I was born for a better life. She was a nurse until she retired, but she came here without her nurse’s license. So, she had to be a domestic worker, earned enough money to be able to send for my sister and my father.
But it’s her hard work and her dedication and her desire to have something bigger for her daughter, my sister. That is my driving force because I say all the time that I am here and I’m working for all the things that my mother earned that were not given to her. Peace of mind, stability, security.
And it is owed to us and I’m here for all of it. And so that is the predominant force. But also now I bring into the conversation my niece, who is now living in Portugal.
For the last month, my sister and her wife, both federal employees, retired right before the administration started in December, felt unsafe and felt like they needed to leave. So, I am working for the ability for Grayson to come home, for this to be a place that she can be safe and that her mothers can be safe. And so that’s just another added layer.
And then, of course, my children, we all work every day for them. But yeah, that’s my story.
[Chris Melody Fields Figueredo] (5:44 – 6:52)
Thank you for sharing that. And I mean, you talking about your mom makes so much sense of why you created Mothering Justice and to be, you know, centered in the beauty that is being a mother and being a caregiver and how that looks in so many different ways, not just even, you know, just biologically, right. The people, but the people in our lives that we love, that we care for, that we mother.
So, I appreciate that. And thank you for centering us and like giving some real heart to the moment that we’re in and how like people can hear about federal employees being laid off or, you know, read about in the news, like what’s happening with the federal government, but like to really practically say like your sister and her family do not feel safe in the country that is their home and had to move somewhere else. I really appreciate that.
I think that is so important for people to understand that there are faces, there are human beings, there are relatives, there are community members that are impacted. So, thank you, Danielle.
[Danielle Atkinson] (6:53 – 8:10)
And it’s also, you know, it’s not hyperbolic. You know, my sister, her co-workers, her former co-workers call her now and even say that people are calling looking for Georgette, like where is Georgette, whether it’s Doge or, you know, whoever.
It’s a real it’s a real change in the culture and how we treat individuals. And then when you speak about community, too, I just have to bring in that we have a neighbor and we have a house next to us and we say that this this house is cursed because we’ve had like seven neighbors in like 17 years. But our last neighbor, Travis, an amazing guy, also a federal employee who I felt comfortable enough that he was living there for maybe three weeks.
And it was right when my daughters became old enough to be left alone. And I called him. I was like, this is the first time I’m leaving my girls alone.
I just want, you know, can you keep a lookout? And it was it was that meant a lot to me, you know, that that was someone that I could trust like that. He is awesome moving overseas and and that he brought community to my neighborhood for me.
And so it’s we are living in a very particular moment that obviously history has seen before, but we’ve been fortunate not to have seen up until right now.
[Chris Melody Fields Figueredo] (8:11 – 9:04)
That’s so real. So, I’m going to shift gears for a moment, if that’s OK. But I appreciate starting there because I actually think it it will carry through our conversation.
So, in this episode, we’re diving into a really important point in ballot measures, right? Signature gathering, petition gathering. And it looks like different in every state.
Right. You live in Michigan, but you’ve also organized in states like Florida and other places. And there are some fundamentals right across the states, even though the rules might look a little different.
So, you know, I would love for you to sort of walk us through what does it look like to get started with signature gathering? What are some of the challenges that people might face? What are some lessons that maybe you’ve learned along the way?
And I know you think about this a lot. How would you improve a signature gathering?
[Danielle Atkinson] (9:04 – 12:30)
Yes, I do think about that a lot. And you hear about it a lot. So, signature gathering is I have to it has to be the most frightening part of your campaign.
It can be really taxing on an organization. I think the flip side of it is it can be empowering. It can be something that builds your organization.
But it is definitely hard work. Right. So, you’ve gotten your you’ve gotten your ballot language approved.
You’ve gotten the the petitions printed. First of all, you found the money to get your petitions printed. That’s no joke.
And you are either doing it in-house with volunteers or a paid firm. And that’s all a decision as well. Right.
I think we all start off. I think I think I’m a little wiser now, but we all start off thinking that, of course, our volunteers are going to do this whole thing. They they’re the ones that want this.
This issue is going to benefit everybody. Everyone’s going to be beating down our door for for petitions. But unfortunately, people live really busy lives.
And usually our initiatives are to help with that ease. But there is no relief with the process. Right.
So, you are either having like an in-house paid firm, you know, in-house paid effort. So, you’re hiring canvassers yourself. And that there’s challenges with that.
And then you’re like you eventually say, I need a petition gathering firm. And then there’s some conflicts there that arise between those two entities. Right.
Are you paying more than the vendor? Is the vendor paying more than you? Are you paying per signature?
Which it’s it’s probably impossible to do that. And kind of unethical, especially with groups that we believe ourselves to be economic justice organizations, per signature doesn’t really jive with us to have people on our payroll like that. Then you are, you know, the quotas you’re always making, you’re always pre or you’re always preoccupied with how many signatures you did you get today?
Did it pay for the ship that I’m sending you out for? So it’s a constant balance. I think the place where I saw it done really well, unfortunately, they didn’t get to collect any signatures because of covid.
But gearing up to it, they developed teams and they had organizations commit, but not just commit, because we all do that. We’re all like, OK, blah, blah, blah, X organization. Can you take a thousand?
They they made sure that those organizations signed up the volunteers. They walked them through the process of how to how to how to sign up volunteers and hold them accountable. And the tracking, it has to be an almost daily thing.
I think we all are kind of under the assumption that we will do a bell curve, right, that will get most of our signatures in the middle. And then we’ll taper off as the turf gets saturated and we get closer to our number. Name me a group that’s done that and I will give them a prize.
It’s usually an arc. We’re usually at the end. We’re just like hustling to get to get the last amount of signatures.
So, there’s a lot of ideas that you have walking into signature gathering. And then the reality looks very similar. So, I’ve talked a lot.
I can definitely tell you.
[Chris Melody Fields Figueredo] (12:30 – 13:17)
No, I think it’s helpful for like especially for our newer audiences. Right. We’re going to have a variety of people, right.
Some seasoned people like like us and then some people who are like just trying to figure out what it looks like. So, I think like some kind of giving that tactical like actually what this looks like, I think is really helpful to folks. And I think, you know, this very well.
Signature gathering can often be really transactional. Right. But you and your organization at Mothering Justif have really thought about how that is tied deeply to base building and community power.
And I’d love for you to just share a little bit more about, you know, how do you approach signature gathering in Michigan as a tool for organizing? And what has it taught you about building long term engagement?
[Danielle Atkinson] (13:17 – 14:58)
Yeah, I don’t know if we’ve ever done it ideally. Again, it’s just the reality versus what you set out to do. But signature gathering for us, it had to be it had to be a way that we’re having a real conversation with people.
They understand what they’re signing. And even in the vendor space, it was important to us that we hire only people that didn’t just collect for everything, that they were only collecting on issues that we either agreed with or we were neutral to, but definitely not our opposition’s message. And so, you know, bringing people in, teaching them about the issue, teaching them about the process is so important.
It’s time consuming. It’s incredibly time consuming. But without it, I like to say the ballot, the signature gathering stage could be like well, actually the campaign in general could be like a person that has like a really strong core with really weak arms and legs.
Like you’ve won something, you’ve got it on the ballot, but the rest of your organization has atrophied. So, making sure that your volunteers are able to speak about this is investment in your GOTV effort, right? So, you want to have your signature gatherers, your volunteers continuously be trained and updated on the process and the campaign and the issue so that in turn, when the signatures are all collected and they’re just talking to their friend on the stoop, they’re able to speak really, really educated, really articulately about what they’re about to vote on.
[Caroline Sánchez-Avakian] (14:58 – 15:20)
That’s so interesting, Danielle, because my follow up question was going to be what were some of the messages that really resonated with folks that have helped you build your base? And so it’s interesting that you’re talking about part of that base is the canvassers that you’re working with that will keep building on that message and reiterating it even when they’re not knocking on doors. Right.
[Danielle Atkinson] (15:20 – 15:37)
The thing that got me into the ballot world was it was my first job. Working on a canvas was my first job and I had just gotten out of college. And when I was in college, my senior year, I had applied to work on Gary Hart’s presidential campaign.
[Chris Melody Fields Figueredo] (15:37 – 15:39)
Oh, you’re taking us back, girl!
[Danielle Atkinson] (15:40 – 15:59)
Girl, not that far back. Let me be real clear, he had a, what’s it called?
“A exploratory campaign.” Some of our audience members may not even know who Gary Hart is. They don’t know him the first time, so they definitely don’t know him the second time.
But so he decided not to run. And this is what year was Gary?
[Chris Melody Fields Figueredo] (16:00 – 16:00)
Oh, four.
[Danielle Atkinson] (16:01 – 16:04)
Oh, four. So he was thinking about oh, four. I graduated in oh, three.
[Chris Melody Fields Figueredo] (16:04 – 16:06)
Same-sies.
[Danielle Atkinson] (16:06 – 17:16)
Yes. And so he eventually decided not to, obviously.
And I got to Florida and I heard about this minimum wage campaign. And I was so excited because I was like, you know, Bill Clinton, Gary Hart, if you don’t know him, look him up. And I was like, this is so this is like a pure issue.
I can just work on on economic justice and I don’t have to make excuses for anybody’s personal life. And I think that, you know, Caroline, to answer your question, with those two girls, a long, long way. Right.
The message that we love to talk about is direct democracy. Like we don’t have to wait for an elected official to decide this is the right thing. We don’t have to defend their wrongdoings so that they can eventually have enough political clout to convince other people to move on this issue.
Direct democracy. We can just vote ourselves a raise. We can just vote ourselves some benefits.
And so that is a message that I think really, really resonates with folks around. Take your power back. It was never theirs to have.
And you can utilize it for the things that will mean, you know, a world of difference in your life.
[Caroline Sánchez-Avakian] (17:16 – 17:58)
It’s such an important takeaway because I think even in our own messaging research here at BISC, that is the message that resonates the most. It’s like no matter what side of the aisle political spectrum you’re part of, people want the rights to do this and they want their voices heard. And ballot measures really resonate no matter where you stand.
So, tell us a little bit about signature gathering and when it’s most vulnerable. Like you talked about signature gathering being the toughest, toughest part of the campaign. It’s such a vulnerable time.
How do you prepare yourself, your team and the coalition for this critical time?
[Danielle Atkinson] (17:58 – 20:56)
And the vulnerabilities are nameless for it because, again, this is a tool of direct democracy. So, it’s not going to be easy. And the opposition put so many roadblocks in our way, right?
Like when we did minimum wage in Florida, half of the rules that they have now that have sabotaged ballot initiatives didn’t exist. So, you have to get your team on board with, one, that this was not built for our success. We are using the tools to undo the master’s house, which is possible, but not easy.
And so get them ready for the fact that this is going to take up a lot of their organizational time. Other issues, if you’re going to do this internally, other issues will be hurt by it. Don’t put yourself in any illusion, delusion that your entire organizational portfolio is going to grow.
You will have to use most of your time for this. There will be a lot of counting. There will be a lot of hard conversations.
We love to live our values about like everybody has space and everyone has time. But these deadlines are very finite. And you will see, right, you’ll make a prediction of how many signatures and that line will always be like this, that you’re like, we’re not at the actual, we’re not at the actual.
Again, show me a campaign that consistently we’re meeting their goals and I will follow them to the ends of the ballot initiative world. Right. And so, you know, and then there will always be money issues.
Like, do we have enough money to collect these signatures? What kind of compromises do we have to make organizationally to collect them? What kind of issues do we have within the organization?
For ours in Florida, there were there were some infighting around community organizing and the ballot initiative. Community organizing believed that they were doing the long term, durable work of building independent political power. And the campaign was like, well, we’re doing the work of winning so that you can do that.
You know, so there was there was tension within the organization around around, you know, two schools of thought. So, get ready for that and get ready for other organizations, you know, not being able to answer all their calls and do all the things and not showing up in coalition like you used to for a little bit. But know that it is a finite amount of time and that you’re building political power, hopefully for the long term, because there is strength in being able to say we collected $750,000 to an elected official that you’re talking to about some other issue.
So, so know that there is a payoff, but it will be hard, hard work in the in the interim.
[Chris Melody Fields Figueredo] (20:57 – 22:11)
I really appreciate that you sort of brought up that very real tension in ballot measure work, right? Like I think we all know like a campaign will end like that’s just the reality that is that that particular ballot measure campaign will end. But as you know, at BISC, we talk a lot about what we leave behind beyond over and beyond that particular campaign.
And I know you think about this a lot of like the importance of, yes, that campaign will end. And in that doing, right, especially with the community based organization or a community based organization or the advocacy organizations, you do want to build, hopefully, right, some permanent community centered infrastructure. And that includes in that signature gathering phase, right?
You so eloquently said, like, right, if you build some of that muscle during signature gathering, then it’s going to like transform into, you know, it’ll move into the to to the campaign phase as well. So, you know, knowing all of that, I’m curious, like, you know, have you seen or what innovations you might have tried along the way? And what do you think is important to making that happen?
[Danielle Atkinson] (22:11 – 24:02)
We look at Ohio. I think we all look at Ohio and their signature gathering as inspiration of how we can do signature gathering better in-house. So it’s this beautiful hybrid of a vended firm and doing it on your own, on your own payroll.
And so, you know, wanting to keep up with the values of a living wage, not a pay to play kind of situation and and just, you know, really educating the public on what they’re signing. And so I think we’re we’re trying to build something like that in Michigan. We have community movement folks who have built a firm that we want to utilize.
And if we can do that here, that would be really great if we can do that for ballot initiatives. It’s a tool that we can use in other in other instances. And so we’re hoping that in this in this cycle, we’re able to really prove make a case for that.
But I do think we need to have nonprofit models of signature gathering. We need to get, you know, do away with and go as far away from as possible as the as we can with the vendors. Bless their hearts.
But there’s just it’s just it’s flawed. It’s deeply flawed. And a lot of initiatives that I think could have a huge impact on the everyday lives of folks and the conversation around democracy have not been able to have a chance at the ballot because the signature gathering piece is so, so, so far away from our core values and a practice that is sustainable for movement folks.
[Chris Melody Fields Figueredo] (24:02 – 25:19)
And I’m glad you, you know, you mentioned like, listen, the reality is the way the system is set up right now, like it is incredibly hard to do an all volunteer signature program. Like that’s just that’s the reality. And there is value to, you know, vended firms like they have an expertise that they bring to the table.
And, you know, it’s important not only to use their expertise, but what are they going to leave behind within the organizations and institutions that are going to have to carry carry the work forward? And, you know. And also, then we have to think about, like, are we creating a model that continues to be extractive and transactional versus like, actually, what is the relationship between volunteer versus organizations versus vended in a way that is like to what I said earlier, right?
Like leaving something behind that increases the expertise of everyone. Right. Because we made a choice to be in this work.
So, I appreciate you just sort of like kind of laying that out because there’s not a one size fits all model. And we can’t give people the illusion that you can do this alone. That’s just not the reality.
[Danielle Atkinson] (25:20 – 26:00)
Yeah, exactly. And even if you could collect all the signatures by yourself, there’s so many other different there’s other factors, right? There’s verification and duplication and just being able to regularly check where you are because you can think you have a billion signatures and you’re like, oh, my gosh, 18 of them are my name.
So, you know, there is an expertise. But how do we bring that expertise in-house? How do we how do we make it a part of the family?
So, it’s not that we have to be so extremely articulate about the relationship because we share the same the same school of thought on how to do it.
[Caroline Sánchez-Avakian] (26:02 – 26:30)
Danielle, I’m going to move us over a little bit to implementation right now, and as you know, and very well in recent years, there have just been so, so many attacks on voter approved ballot measures. And so having your expertise talk about the effects of that is so valuable to our listeners. So, could you tell us a little bit about how you planned for implementation of the ballot measure post-election while still in campaign mode?
[Danielle Atkinson] (26:31 – 26:36)
Oh, we didn’t. So, we did not. I was like, that’s news to me.
[Caroline Sánchez-Avakian] (26:36 – 26:37)
That’s real.
[Danielle Atkinson] (26:39 – 30:30)
I mean, implementation was this like thing we heard of. Right. But it was a hierarchy of needs.
We need to get these signatures and then we need to have enough money to do a GOTV campaign. So, we were not thinking about implementation. And as we are in that that stage right now and even before implementation, right, defense becomes before implementation.
And you have different friends and it’s important in the signature gathering phase to know what kind of friends you have and not that they’re good or bad. You don’t throw anybody away, but you’re real clear who is there just for the campaign, who is there just for the win and who is there, who will be there for years to come. And I’m very clear about the partners that we have right now and what their self interests are and planning accordingly, because when you make compromises and agreements just to get through a campaign stage with people that might might exclude the friends that you will need four or five, six, ten years after the win, that’s you don’t want to make that compromise.
So, it’s really important to understand the self-interest of individual players and yours. And defense can take years and it takes a lot of money. So, if you can be thinking about it during the signature phase or even when you’re writing your initiative, it’s really important to think about those legal those legal costs and how long it will take and who will be in your coalition to make sure they can defend it.
And then implementation. Again, people show up differently when when you when you got to make some rules around things and you can have the best intentions about how something is going to play for the for the whole. But then there are self-interests of organizations, again, not good or bad because people are showing up for their people particularly.
And we want everybody to be represented. And if everyone’s represented, sometimes those representations will clash. And so prepare yourself for those conversations.
Make sure your values aligned and that those are the driving pieces of your coalition that you’re always reiterating. We want to make sure the most amount of people have access to the most amount of benefits or or this right or this, you know. So, always be having that conversation.
I’ll make those it’ll make the rule making process go a lot easier. Also, be really thoughtful and mindful of who is who is that the agency that you’re going to need for the implementation part. We really lucked out and I mean, we lucked out, but it was really labor being the smartest that labor can be in and making sure that the person in charge of labor, the labor agency in Michigan was a labor person.
And he’s he’s just brilliant. And he is we couldn’t have had a better person in the rulemaking process. But that very easily could have been someone else if somebody wasn’t minding the store.
Right. So, who is going to be in charge of the rulemaking process? And do you have the relationships with the administration if it’s a friendly administration to ensure that you get the right person in there?
So, again, this an initiative is not done when you win. It’s not done when you lost when you lose either. But you have to be thinking about all of those things for four years to come.
[Caroline Sánchez-Avakian] (30:30 – 31:18)
That’s such an important point and something that we have talked about with other folks who’ve been on this podcast before that talked about the importance of really knowing your partners in your coalition, because I think it really helps set a basis of understanding as to where people are and helps either prevent or mitigate any conflict that can happen within the coalition and knowing who they are and like how are they going to be there after the end?
Are they not? And that’s fine, whatever it is. But I think that core understanding of where people stand and that honesty that people need to have at the beginning is just critical to the success of of that coalition and then ultimately that ballot measure.
When we talked about partners, so I would love for you to talk a little bit about how BISC showed up for you during ballot measure work. What’s that partnership like?
[Danielle Atkinson] (31:18 – 33:46)
Yeah, so I think BISC showed up even before we started our initiative with kind of table setting around how long this takes. Just giving people right expectations for how long it takes to really win something. What does a win look like?
Right. I think before BISC, a lot of people were, you know, if you don’t win, you lose. And the lessons that BISC has really quantified around the country is, OK, well, what does it mean to even embark on this?
How does the conversation change? How do you ripen the ground for the next group of people to come along? So it’s just, you know, bringing out the telescope to see a greater lens is really important.
Then the polling and just being able to understand more deeply how people think about these issues. It’s again, it’s a long term thing. How are people thinking about this over time?
Because we know a poll is a snapshot. So, we need something, you know, Trend and See really shows us a long term trajectory. Thinking and talking about issues before we get to the ballot stage, bringing in more people than just the people who can afford to to to participate.
Right. The pay to play model. I don’t think I would have had the courage to to question it without BISC backing me up.
So, that was, oh, God, it’s like 12 years ago now when I, you know, I was much younger, not much, you know, I mean, I haven’t aged much, but, you know, I felt really, really young in that conversation with people with a lot of money and have and coming in and being like, I don’t think it should just be a dollar amount, you know, with my my voice shaking. But I was able to to to have evidence and practices that that BISC had had cultivated and to to be able to show that there’s different calculations, there are different constellations to how you win. And we can measure people’s values to a campaign in in other ways besides how many dollars they bring.
[Chris Melody Fields Figueredo] (33:48 – 35:30)
Yeah, that is so real. It’s it’s and one of the things I really appreciated about what you were talking about, the honesty you’ve given is like, oh, in the left, we can be so purist sometimes. And that’s like that’s a criticism of us.
Right. Like when you were talking about like. Knowing that, yeah, some of the coalition is just going to be here for the winning of this campaign and that’s it, and like having that honest conversation from the beginning and why you might make a decision on a policy or certain things like having those upfront conversations, I think actually helps reduce the harm that might come out if you’re hiding the ball or not or not having those conversations, you’re actually setting yourselves up for failure. So, I really appreciate that.
You know, one of the unique things about Michigan and about measures in Michigan is that the state legislature can adopt an initiative before it even goes to voters, which happens has happened in Michigan before. It happened in 2018 with minimum wage and in paid leave. And you’ve kind of generally talked about that effort throughout, but tell us a little bit more, you know, anything else from that effort that you think it’s really important for our viewers, our listeners to understand and what the Time to Care Coalition has done and, you know, the reason you alluded to, right, like sometimes this stuff takes years after.
Right. And I know you’ve had some some recent accomplishments. So, talk a little bit more about that.
[Danielle Atkinson] (35:31 – 38:37)
We have a we have a provision in Michigan where the legislature can adopt an initiative and the and the spirit of it, right, is that the legislature sees the light. Right. They’re like, oh, my gosh, all of these people signed this initiative.
They they know something we don’t know. We should have taken action. And now let’s just let’s just save everybody time and money and make it a law because we are we are servants of the people.
Yeah. OK, so. Our opposition.
Manipulated that and totally out of step with the spirit of the law, they said, yes, we can adopt it so that they don’t have it on the ballot because it’s overwhelmingly popular and it’s going to not only is it going to win and piss off businesses, it’s going to drive voter turnout. So, they knew something that I’m still trying to convince our allies of, right, that it is a voter turnout mechanism. And so they said we’re going to adopt it, but we’re going to amend it.
We’re just going to gut it so so that we don’t have to deal with the consequences of it. And and it’s the first time in history they did that. And so we we sued and it’s a long story.
I can tell you all about it, but it’s it’s long. But we sued and it took us 10 years all the way to the Supreme Court where we had to sue this our friend, the attorney general and the governor. I mean, the state of Michigan to win.
And we did. And the Supreme Court ruled in our favor that adopt and amend was unconstitutional. But even after that, the legislature, you know, bowed to the to the business community and stripped some benefits again from from paid sick days and minimum wage.
And so it is. It’s sad, but it was so telling and it just made it crystal clear what we’re up against, right, there’s no hiding, there’s no ambiguity. It was a vote to go against the will of the people.
And so I don’t care what letter is behind your name. You are now my enemy. And I and I, you know, and I’ve had really hard, well, hard for them, very easy for me conversations with people who who think that we are aligned.
And I said, no, I will do everything I can in my power to ensure that somebody who goes against the will of the people does not have any more power. And so, again, it’s the ballot initiative is is so much more than just the rights that we are fighting for. It is a bellwether.
It’s an indicator. It is all the things that we need to be able to draw a very clear line in the sand of who is with us and who is against us. And so I know who I go into war with and who I’m who I won’t touch.
[Chris Melody Fields Figueredo] (38:38 – 39:27)
So, I mean, we know that ballot measures will be a turnout. It’s going to excite people. Right.
But that doesn’t always translate. And I think this is something that, you know, Bisk is very firmly said, yes, it will get people excited. They will vote for that issue.
But that does not mean it will vote. They will vote for the candidates. Can you explain a little bit, maybe for especially for folks that we still have to help them understand, like why, you know, why that there might be that differences?
Like, I think it’d be helpful for people to know, like, yeah, it’s good. People are going to get excited about this issue, right, because they’re like, “hello, I want paid sick days.” Hello.
I want more money in my pocket. Right. But that isn’t always going to, you know, translate apples to apples.
Right. Of like actually getting the candidates that we want into office.
[Danielle Atkinson] (39:27 – 40:37)
It will help candidates. It’s an open book test for candidates. They just have to open the book.
Right. So, they have to run with the issue. They have to talk about this issue.
They have to talk about more than the issue. They have to talk about a way of being. Right.
About democracy, about economic justice, about, you know, the power of the people. But if you run away from it, then you’re you’re milk toast. Right.
Like that, that that’s not necessarily going. You have to give somebody you still have to give somebody a reason to vote for you. And so, you know, it is the way we think about it in Michigan or the way I’m really working on allies is saying, like, I need you to support this so that they have so that you know who you should support so that we have better candidates and we can really, again, see who’s with us and who’s not with us.
And if used correctly by movement folks, we will get better candidates. And I think if we have better candidates, then we will win in the end. But, you know, if you don’t open the book, I can’t I can’t help you.
[Caroline Sánchez-Avakian] (40:37 – 41:03)
My next question, I feel like, Danielle, you’ve already answered in your just now. But I have to ask you because you have just so much experience in this area, but living in a time when democracy and ballot measures specifically are under unprecedented attacks, which you just spoke about. What are your thoughts, other thoughts on ways to combat these types of attacks?
[Danielle Atkinson] (41:04 – 44:08)
Yeah, I we need more ballot initiatives. Right. So, that means we need to fight for the right.
We need to be doing it on a local level, on a statewide level, municipal level, which, you know, that’s you know, I think that’s the hardest. And then we need to fight the attacks on on this on this. So, we need to have a proactive and and and a defensive fight for this tool, which is hard, right, because it’s a very nuanced thing that we have to talk about and then have people buy into and then have people fight for.
But it is I think today is the day right after what happened in Texas. Today is the day to say, look at that. It’s a whim from a radical leader can have five more votes in Congress.
We it’s our democracy is not safe. And so every tool we need to be fighting for. I think we need to bring this to as a unifier to our third parties that we agree with, that we love but feel might be jeopardizing, you know, our our opportunity to leverage power on at all levels.
How can we work together to have a ballot initiative that speaks to the values and the reason why you started a third party? And then how how can we work together for more options? I think we need to be thinking really outside of the box when it comes to democracy.
Our friend George has really just brought some really amazing tactics from all over the world about what democracy looks like and could look like in this country. And then we need to think about who’s being disenfranchised either legally or illegally. Right.
And see how we can reenfranchise it. People, the census. We all need to be paying attention to the census and how we are distributing seats and representation after that.
We need to be thinking about folks who live in the territories. Right. They’re all brown folks.
There’s a lot of brown folks that don’t have a vote. We need to be thinking about D.C. statehood. If it if now is not the most obvious time that we need to be thinking about that.
So, just continuously be thinking about where do people not have access to representation and who? I can answer that really quickly. It’s mostly black and brown people will always be disproportionately under or over represented and who doesn’t have the vote.
And we need to be thinking outside the box. The answers are in our communities. They have not even been raised.
They have not. There hasn’t been a book set about them. If you have an idea, bring it.
You’ve got to be talking about what your people are saying and seeing, because those will be the innovations that save us.
[Caroline Sánchez-Avakian] (44:09 – 44:45)
Incredible tactical advice, Danielle. Thank you for that. I’m going to switch us a little bit to your career and advice.
So, as we have listeners from all over the spectrum of early career, mid career, senior career level, what is the one piece of advice that you would give someone just beginning their career in advocacy, advocacy and politics? And then conversely, on the flip side, what is a piece of advice or perhaps something important for more of the seasoned folks to remember or to be open to?
[Danielle Atkinson] (44:45 – 47:15)
I think it’s almost the same. It might be nuanced, but it’s almost the same. It’s do what you love and you want to be good at.
So, you might be good at it. Or you might want to be good at it. Right.
And so everyone’s like, “oh, my gosh, Mothering Justice, you started this thing.” “How did you do this?” “You must have been.”
I just didn’t see myself and I didn’t see my wisdom and I and I and I thought it was and not even my wisdom, I didn’t see the wisdom of the people I loved being being utilized or or appreciated. And I was like, that doesn’t make any sense. Like, why wouldn’t you just listen to that person?
And so I decided to build something because I thought that women of color could do it better. And and so I wasn’t brave. I wasn’t smart because I didn’t have any money, but I just did it because it felt right in my soul to do it.
And the way we had been doing it didn’t feel good. And then, you know, so I guess that’s more for the people entering into it. Seasoned, I guess I might be in that category now.
You know, I do what I love and I love being with my kids. I love seeing them grow. It’s it’s the last time for so many things.
It’s the first time for so many things. And the people that will mourn me will be my babies. And if I’m not spending time with them, if I’m not really showing up for them, then who am I really showing up for?
Because nobody else, you know, maybe somebody will know my name 10 years after I die. But my babies will. And so I’m just enjoying them.
I go on vacation. I leave at five o’clock. You know, I’ve put in the work.
Let me tell you, I work for Acorn. And if you know Acorn, I put in the work. I worked all the hours.
I knocked all the doors. And and now it’s time for someone else to do that. And I am working hard in a different way.
But I live a whole life. And I and I think that’s really important. So, just make sure that you’re living, you know, the life that you want to be proud of, that when you are done with this and nobody’s inviting you to speak, you’re still like, I’m happy with who I am.
[Caroline Sánchez-Avakian] (47:16 – 47:19)
Such an important message. Thank you for that, Danielle.
[Chris Melody Fields Figueredo] (47:19 – 48:28)
That’s so beautiful. And, you know, first of all, trusting your gut is brave, Danielle. Knowing that that your community and the people you love deserve a voice in a in a platform and a place to feel like they belong and can be seen and heard is bravery, in my not so humble opinion.
And I feel like you sort of you started us with legacy that you carry right through your mother and then the legacy you leave behind through, you know, whether you have children or your family members or people you’ve even touched in your life and you’ve really centered. I appreciate sort of naturally we have gotten to our final question around love. Right.
And you’ve heard me talk about this. We really has made this call to action to our partners to make ballot measures, love letters to our people. How have you, as we close, looked at ballot measures as a way to be a love letter to your community?
[Danielle Atkinson] (48:28 – 50:27)
First, it’s a love letter to my mom always. Right. My mother is a cancer survivor and had to get her vacation.
She was a nurse, so she spent her entire life taking care of others. But, you know, before FMLA, it was getting all of your vacation times and all your things together so that you could get chemotherapy. And you’re the lucky one if you have all of these hours to scramble together, right, to be able to heal and still keep your head above water.
So, my work and leave is always a love letter to her and her and the sacrifices she made. But also, like, it is a joy to write language because you get to write in all of your values. Right.
Like we’re talking about, you know, language translation. We’re talking about indigenous communities and the sovereignty they have to negotiate benefits. We’re talking about domestic domestic violence survivors and their agency and time off to to make sure that they have what they need and recognize that we get to recognize the spectrum of life.
Right. That not only are we there at the birth, we’re there, we’re there when someone transitions. And so it’s it’s it’s beautiful to be able to just honor every piece of life in language.
And to and again to what Mothering Justice started off as is like I felt invisible and I get to visualize and I get to make seen all of these people that have meant so much to me in my life and in just, you know, that I’ve gotten to see through the workplaces I’ve been in. I get to name that. And so it’s a joy and it’s an honor to be able to do it.
[Caroline Sánchez-Avakian] (50:28 – 50:43)
Danielle, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. If you’re interested in the work that Danielle Atkinson and Mothering Justice are doing, you can learn more at motheringjustice.org and we’ll include that link in our show notes as well. Thanks again, Danielle.
[Danielle Atkinson] (50:44 – 50:45)
Thanks so much for having me.
[Caroline Sánchez-Avakian] (50:46 – 51:01)
Thank you for being here. Thanks for listening to the Direct Democracy Diaries.
If you enjoyed today’s episode, leave us a message on our socials at Ballot Strategy and check out our website at Ballot.org for more updates, insights, research and so much more.
[Chris Melody Fields Figueredo] (51:02 – 51:06)
Can’t wait to see you next time. Keep fighting for change one ba