Direct Democracy Diaries Episode 5: Campaigning Towards Victory and What We Leave Behind with Fran Hutchins

10/29/2025

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In this episode of Direct Democracy Diaries, Chris and Caroline sit down with Fran Hutchins, Executive Director of the Equality Federation, to reflect on two decades of ballot measure campaigns, queer movement building, and the importance of doing the work before the spotlight hits. Hutchins shares lessons from marriage equality battles in Maine and California, the evolution of trans rights messaging, and the real meaning of cross-movement solidarity. With honesty and strategy, they explore what it takes to build durable power — and how today’s bodily autonomy fights can be a love letter to our people.

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Highlights from the episode with Fran Hutchins: 

  • “My people are movement people — people who understand the long-term work that it takes to build towards social change. That not just that one march or one election cycle. My people are the people who are trying to build governing power, people are the people who are trying to think strategically about cross-movement organizing and coalition building, and thinking about how we actually prepare ourselves for the time when we do have governing powe,r so that we’re working together rather than in individual silos. So I’m a movement person, not just a single issue person.”
  • “Once we lost [the marriage equality ballot measure] in California where we thought we should have won, we did actually go back and say: what did we do wrong? What could we do differently? Where could we make different investments? There was a lot of talk about investments in and organizing in communities of color. I got more involved with a group that was thinking more about tactics, so we learned how to do deeper conversations with folks that were persuasive. That’s now known as Deep Canvassing.”
  • “We went out and asked people, why did you vote against us? I have to say, that was really hard — having to go out and look for the people who had not wanted to vote with us, who had not wanted to vote for our rights. But having those conversations and learning what was it that kept you from supporting us was really transformative for me.”
  • “If you look back to that Maine (marriage equality) campaign, some of the best messengers we found were from the faith communities, from families, and from the organizing that had been happening way before the campaign was in town. That’s the piece that I think is so important: we have to build power that’s movement power. Campaigns can be a touch point in that, but really that on-the-ground organizing that happens when the national spotlight or the campaign spotlight is not on, is so, so important.” 
  • “I think a flashpoint for these conversations in campaigns is often around spokespeople and messaging, and I believe it’s at a certain point we can have an over-reliance on what the “experts” are telling us might be a good messenger, and we don’t think about the backlash or the hollowness of a win that might happen if we don’t actually engage and empower our communities to be a part of that win.” 
  • “So very specifically, I’m saying there were times on the marriage equality trail where consultants told campaigns that they shouldn’t show gay people — specifically not in couples — it should really be very sanitized. That created this overarching sense for a while that we just weren’t welcome in our own movement, in our own campaigns. That in order to convince the majority —  which is straight people — to like queer people, we had to be as sanitized and normative looking as possible.”  
  • “We don’t need to bring a bunch of fancy out-of-town people to run a campaign. The goal of us [national organizations] coming in should be to build the leadership of the local people.” 
  • “It is only recently that — and especially in the research we’ve done on how to talk about and be more persuasive around trans identities — that we’ve really come to the conclusion and agreement as a movement that we do want to put ourselves in our campaigns.” 
  • “One of the best spokespeople on our campaign in 2012 was a grandfather of a lesbian. She was in the commercial too, so it wasn’t like she wasn’t there. He was around 90, and he was saying that ‘It’s a value of Mainers to accept and love our families, and this is my family. I’ve got four generations of my family here and  my granddaughter Katie is a lesbian, and I want her to get married.’ It was a very simple message, very sweet, but very much saying, ‘These folks are a part of our family, and I support that.’”

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Episode Shownotes: 

  • [00:02:20] Fran Hutchins shares their path into movement work through immigrant rights organizing. 
  • [00:04:24] The crucial role of infrastructure, funding, and long-term strategy in building powerful campaigns. 
  • [00:06:05] Defining “movement people” and what durable, cross-issue organizing really requires. 
  • [00:08:27] Lessons from marriage equality campaigns: 30 losses, deep canvassing, and campaign evolution.
  • [00:14:12] The limits of building cross-movement coalitions during campaigns. 
  • [00:17:44] Why early organizing and community relationships were key to winning in Maine.
  • [00:19:20] The harm of sanitized messaging and exclusion of queer people from their own campaigns. 
  • [00:23:05] Centering impacted people: learning from past missteps in marriage equality.
  • [00:26:23] What made some campaign messages resonate—and why others failed. 
  • [00:28:32] Deep canvassing around trans identity: a shift in strategy, led by trans organizers. 
  • [00:34:53] Local power and long campaigns as foundations for leadership development.
  • [00:38:21] Coalition work across bodily autonomy issues and resisting care-based rollbacks. 
  • [00:42:43] Combating authoritarianism by building movements, not just reacting to fights. 
  • [00:49:04] Advice for new organizers and seasoned leaders: pace yourself, stay in the work.
  • [00:55:20] A visual love letter: remembering the “Make It Real” hallway and the people behind the work.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Caroline Sanchez-Avakian: Welcome to the Direct Democracy Diaries, the podcast where we explore the power of ballot measures and the people behind them. I’m Caroline Sanchez Akian.

[00:00:15] Chris Melody Fields Figueredo: And I’m Chris. Marty. Fields vie. Join us as we dive deep into the stories, strategies, and successes that are shaping the future of our democracy. One diary entry at a time.

[00:00:29] Hey y’all, it’s Chris. Melody Fields Fido. Welcome back to the show. Caroline. I am so excited about today’s guest. Fran Hutchins, the executive director of the Equality Federation

[00:00:41] Caroline Sanchez-Avakian: and Bisk Partners with Equality Federation on our bodily autonomy work. So I’m really curious to learn more about what they have to say about ballot measure campaigning and the lessons they’ve learned along the way.

[00:00:52] Chris Melody Fields Figueredo: Me Too. Hutchins career has focused on building a progressive, really strong movements that changes the way we approach some of our biggest challenges like poverty. The unhoused education, economic inequality, and discrimination. So a little bit more about Hutch and the Equality Federation. They are the national strategic partner to state-based organizations working to win equality in the communities we call home.

[00:01:23] They have worked on the ground alongside partners to build strong organizations, developed tailored strategies, and create data-driven solutions to meet the needs of our movement. I know Hutch is especially proud of the time they served as the regional field director of Mainers for United for Marriage, the successful 2012 ballot measure campaign to win marriage equality for same sex couples.

[00:01:51] Caroline Sanchez-Avakian: Incredible work. Can’t wait to learn more, Chris. So let’s get the show started.

[00:01:55] Chris Melody Fields Figueredo: Hut, welcome to the show. I’m so excited to have you today. Thanks so much for having me. Absolutely. I’m, I’m glad you’re here. So, before you joined, I gave a little bit of background on you. Um, but tell us more. What drives you, what led you to this work?

[00:02:14] And as I ask every guest from Ella, um, Ella Baker, who are your people?

[00:02:20] Fran Hutchins: Well, I’ll start with what got me here and what drives me. I actually was just talking to, um, some students at one of my Alma Maers, uh, UMass, and that was one of the questions they asked me to answer. So I did have to think about it and, you know, if I trace my path into this type of career.

[00:02:38] Um, and as I’m sure you said in your intro, I’m executive director of Equality Federation, so we’re a national network of L-G-B-T-Q nonprofit. That do advocacy at the state level? You know what led me here really was, uh, just getting into the movement period. My first movement job was at Chila in 2006. Um, I had been a student I was studying, um, abroad, and I saw the walkouts around the HR 44 37, um, the Sense Brenner Act in 2006, and I saw it from afar.

[00:03:15] I was living. Um, in France at the time and at the same time. I was part of a massive action in France, um, against Nicola Kozy, um, his labor law. And so it was really my first time being organized, um, as part of my union, but then also watching my students organize themselves, uh, to go up against this labor law.

[00:03:39] And, uh, when I knew I was moving back to the States, I really wanted to be a part of that movement that had been doing similar work, um, which at the time was the Immigrant Rights Movement. Uh, and so I was lucky enough to get a job in development and fundraising. So it was, you know, it wasn’t really the activist job I imagined from afar.

[00:03:59] Mm-hmm. Um, you know, the marching and the, uh, setting up barricades and things like that, but it really was. Uh, my first job really learning how to build a movement organization. Mm. Uh, and so, you know, that really, I think that actually did drive me into where I am now, which is this network of organizations and our job is to support them, um, and really learning.

[00:04:24] Uh, at the time, cheer Lo was a relatively small organization and we were in a movement moment very similar to I would say the L-G-B-T-Q movement is in today. Um, and the immigrant. Rights movement again. Uh, and you know, it was really, uh, being part of the team that thought about how do we resource this work?

[00:04:43] How do we make sure that the folks who are doing the organizing have what they need, um, on the ground to run their campaigns. And so being part of development coming in, uh, really got me. Uh, thinking in that mindset, even though I really wanted to be working more in policy and organizing, and I eventually did move into that, that direction, understanding that the undergirding of a movement, um, can be some of those movement organizations that are permanent, uh, fixtures in the progressive space.

[00:05:11] Chris Melody Fields Figueredo: I really appreciate you sharing that because. I think especially for people who are beginning right and starting to join this work, there’s so many entry points into this. It doesn’t mean you have to be an organizer immediately. You could be a a development person. You could be an operations person, and if we’re like being like real.

[00:05:34] That operations and development, like, that’s the, I think you said the undergird that like mm-hmm. Fuels that gives us the sustainability to be able to do the work. There may be things that, you know, um, might feel more glamorous, although, I don’t know, like knocking doors at a 110 degrees, uh, which is what I’ve done certainly isn’t the most glamorous, but that those roles.

[00:05:59] We all have a different part to play, uh, in this work. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:06:05] Fran Hutchins: Yeah. And I think too, when you, you asked me who are my people? Like, I do think that my people are movement people, like people who understand the long-term work that it takes to build towards social change. That um, it’s not just that one march or that one election cycle.

[00:06:21] Um, you know, my people are the people who are. Trying to build governing power. My people are the people who are trying to, um, you know, think strategically about, uh, cross movement organizing and coalition building and thinking about how we actually, uh, prepare ourselves for the time when we do have governing power so that we’re working together rather than in individual silos.

[00:06:43] So I’m a, I’m a movement person, not just a single issue person. Even though obviously our jobs put us into these, uh, you know, into these lanes or boxes. Um, that’s really sort of where I come from is, is that, uh, you know, that sort of. How do we build toward, uh, this future together and understanding that it’s not the long term.

[00:07:04] I mean, I remember when I was working for Sheila and we lost on comprehensive immigration reform in 2007. It was the Kennedy McCain Act. Um, they told us that we were gonna have to be in it for the long haul because the first time that we would have access to this opportunity again, would be 2013. Right.

[00:07:22] And so that was the long haul. And we thought then, okay, we’ve gotta organize for several more years. And no, it’s. Been now, you know, more than a decade. Um, and we still are still organizing for, and there’s still people in the movement who are working toward immigration reform and we just. It doesn’t stop after one campaign.

[00:07:38] Chris Melody Fields Figueredo: No. The, the work doesn’t stop at, at start or stop. And, and we believe that really, um, strongly, and I think that sort of leads us to, um, this is direct Democracy Diaries. We’re gonna be talking about ballot measures and you know, really thinking about how we have worked together, um, and, and how we’ve come to know each other.

[00:07:57] You know, you got your start. In bowel measure work. Right. Working on some pivotal marriage equality campaigns. Right. In California and Maine. So looking back at, at, you know, your previous work and those campaigns, those fights that feel like we’re in again, what do you think you learned from that time that really taught you about what it takes to build durable power To what you just said, not just for one campaign.

[00:08:27] Fran Hutchins: Yeah, I mean the marriage campaigns are such a good example, and I know it’s one that we use a lot in ballot measure land, um, because it really is a sort of like beginning, middle and an end story. Uh, and we don’t have a lot of satisfying stories like that, I think. Um, and because we did make some, some pivots and we did become more successful based on what we had learned, uh, and so for folks, uh, who.

[00:08:51] You know, I say it’s the beginning, middle, and an end story, and maybe not everyone knows it, but we lost like 30 times. So we, we did not also, this is another thing, as you know, Chris, uh, I feel about ballot measures often they are brought to us, not the other way around. Like I really want us to generate, uh, the ballot measures for our community that help us.

[00:09:11] But often the fights. That we end up in, around ballot measures, or at least especially in the marriage and L-G-B-T-Q realm have been, uh, really negative and have been brought to us. So starting in the early two thousands, states started banning marriage for same-sex couples as part of their state constitutions, often through a ballot measure process.

[00:09:31] So not every state used that process, but many, many did. And so we lost 30 times a, a combination of, um. Legislative ballot measure, uh, fights between 2003, uh, or two, early two thousands, let’s say 2003. And, uh, 2009, I believe was the last one we lost. Uh, so it was a pretty quick, uh, it actually feels really familiar to the folks who are in this moment right now.

[00:09:57] Um, you know, in the states we’ve been losing legislatively on a number of issues, uh, around trans issues like, um, uh, sports inclusion. Um, you know, exclusion from medical care. So we’ve, you know, we’re, we’ve been in sort of a losing, uh, streak similar to that moment, and it felt really bad. Um, especially, and I wasn’t on the ground.

[00:10:18] I was, I, I entered the marriage, uh, ballot, measure fight around 2007, so we were sort of on the tail end of that losing streak. But I came in and people were crispy. People were mad at each other. Uh, you know, there was a lot, I was an organizer, so I wasn’t in the leadership or decision making structures, but I had, you know, it trickled down.

[00:10:38] We heard, um, I remember on the prop eight, they changed out the campaign manager, uh, like the last hour. Uh, and we, you know, all the organizers was like, what’s going on? Um, and so, you know, there was definitely, uh, things that happened that I think we weren’t. Proud of right on the Prop eight campaign. And, and you know, that’s been talked to death by a lot of different people.

[00:10:59] And again, I was just an organizer. Um, but I know that, you know, we didn’t, for example, spend a lot of time. I’ll tell you as an organizer what I, you know what I know we didn’t do, we didn’t spend a lot of time deep in the community organizing. Um, as part of that campaign, um, we were mostly calling and doing voter ID with our supporters.

[00:11:19] Um, and, and I was on the campaign from the very beginning, from the decline to sign all the way to election day. So, you know, we, we weren’t doing persuasion. Um, we had like really light persuasion talking points, uh, the campaign. Was up against, uh, something that actually I think we’re dealing with right now, which was a very strong and convincing messaging from the opposition that we had no answer to.

[00:11:43] So yeah, we were really struggling and we weren’t, um, I think doing the best work possible. Uh, but of course this was after having lost a number of other times, and I’m sure when I came in they had already made improvements from before. So, uh, but once we got in there and we lost in California where we thought we should have won.

[00:12:00] Um, you know, we did actually go back and say, what did we do wrong? What could we do differently? Uh, where could we make different investments? And I think, again, there was a lot of talk, especially about investments in and organizing in communities of color. Um, I got more, uh, involved with a group that was thinking more about tactics and so we learned how to do deeper conversations with folks that were persuasive.

[00:12:24] Um, it’s. Now known as Deep Canvassing. At the time we didn’t call it that, but we went out and asked people, why did you vote against us? Which, I mean, I have to say, like as a person who, uh, had been at that time working in different movements where people didn’t like us that much was still really hard, uh, to go out and actually look for the people who had not, uh, wanted to vote with us, had not wanted to vote for our rights.

[00:12:49] And having those conversations and learning really, like what was it that, you know. Kept you from supporting us. And that was really transformative for me, both as an organizer, um, because I had at that point really been involved in like really grassroots organizing with cheerla, like meeting folks at Home Depot or.

[00:13:11] At the bus stop or you know, in school clubs really just to improve everyday lives and working conditions. And then I had done campaign electoral organizing on Prop eight. And so this was like a new thing for me where I was like, what is this thing where we’re organizing our own community to go out and do, you know, political work?

[00:13:30] And so it was sort of a blend of community organizing and with a, with more of a political policy outcome. So yeah, so that, you know, that’s one of the things we learned was that on issues that are. More confusing to folks, more triggering for folks, uh, where we have less information. Um, and I mean, I would broadly call them culture war issues.

[00:13:49] If we’re gonna be asking people to vote about them, our education has to include, uh. Addressing the issues that they bring up. So we can’t just ignore them. And the best way to do that is through early conversations, deeper conversations with folks. Um, and that’s been something that has been used now throughout a number of development campaigns.

[00:14:09] Um, both that I’ve worked on and, and other ones across the country.

[00:14:12] Caroline Sanchez-Avakian: Thanks for that Hutch. Um, you mentioned right now a a ton of the lessons that you learned along the way in those campaigns, but I also know that you focus so much on that cross movement work, and so maybe you can talk a little bit about the lessons you learned about being really intentional about the work that is intersectional and how that can lead to a broader base of support.

[00:14:35] Fran Hutchins: Yeah. You know, one of the things that I think happens and, and you know, we’re talking about ballot measures as the framework for our conversation, and one of the things that I think happens when we’re on a ballot measure campaign, especially if it’s like an issue-based campaign, is it doesn’t, um, allow for in a campaign setting some of that work.

[00:14:55] And what, what I’ve noticed and what I’ve learned is that. That works really well. If the relationships and coalitions exist ahead of the ballot measure, a ballot measure campaign is not the best time to build, lasting and, uh, deep cross movement relationships. It can be, I’m not saying it, it won’t happen.

[00:15:15] Um, you, you know, once you’re in the trenches with someone, you know, we, if, if it goes well, then you might end up in, in a good place with each other. But I, I’ve had more luck with, you know, just building. Campaigns from existing coalitions. Right. And again, you know, we can talk a little bit about what it means to kind of go in as an expert from the outside as a consultant or as a, um, convener versus being on the ground, um, from the beginning in a campaign.

[00:15:43] And I think, you know, obviously, uh, Chris with Bisk in that role often, um, I’m sure you have have thoughts on that as well, but, uh, you know, I mean, I just will give the example. Basically I was, uh, I was on the 2012 campaign. We were dealing with like the six counties in the north of Maine. And for those of you who don’t know Maine, it’s like a really big state.

[00:16:02] Uh, my turf was, I don’t know, it took me like six hours to drive across. Uh, we had six counties. It was huge. Um, and. In, I, I’ll just give you the example of, of, uh, my deputy, uh, uh, Beth Allen, who, um, now runs, uh, actually I think state voices in, in Maine, but back then we were just organizing in the rural areas of Maine together.

[00:16:27] Um, and she had so many deep relationships across faith communities. Um, you know, she was a member of a specific congregation. She had relationships with, um, you know, just with so many people. Across issues that when she wanted to pull together a meeting, um, you know, we already had this coalition that existed because we had people coming in from repro.

[00:16:49] We had people coming in from faith, really just through her relationships and organizing that had been happening on the ground locally before the ex experts. Right. Uh, scare quote. Um, arrived on the ground. Um, you know, if you look back to, uh, you know, even on that main campaign, uh, some of the best messengers that we found from the faith communities, from families, um, and things like that came from the organizing that had been happening way before the campaign was in town.

[00:17:18] And so, you know, that’s the piece that I think is so important is that cross issue organizing is important. We have to build power, you know, that’s more like movement power and not like single stream power. And campaigns can be a touch point in that. But really that on the ground organizing that happens when the spotlight’s not on, um, when the spot, the national spotlight or the campaign spotlight is not on, is just so, so important.

[00:17:44] Chris Melody Fields Figueredo: Yeah, I’m glad you mentioned that. Like sort of that push pull and it’s come up in a couple of the, uh, other episodes like when you’re on a campaign, you’re on a campaign to win or defeat something, right? Like you’re very clear, you know what your outcome is, you know what you’re moving towards. And then there’s the other work that is connected in, in a, related to that is the coalition work, the people on the ground, you know, so much of what bis.

[00:18:08] Talks about is you know, what you live believe behind, over and beyond that campaign. And when you’re in campaign moan, you have to make some like, really like quick decisions, right? Um, ’cause it might deter you from, from that outcome of winning. And you know, since you know, this is a diary. We wanna share some truths to folks, right?

[00:18:31] And I think that is really true. There are some really hard truths from the marriage equality fight, right? That we don’t wanna repeat, especially as we’re thinking, uh, about the fights moving forward. And there is so much to be celebrated about the success of marriage equality campaigns. There is so many wonderful lessons learned that have really shaped how about measure and and advocacy efforts, um, are run today.

[00:18:56] But it wasn’t sunshine and ra rainbows all the time. Right. And the road to get there was long and hard. You said it, you lost 30 times before you started to, to win things, right? Yeah. Um, so talk a little bit more about, um, your experience on working in some of. The more uncomfortable parts of a a campaign, what are some of the lessons?

[00:19:20] And I really think about the work that we’re doing right now around bodily autonomy. You know, what are the lessons we can learn from marriage equality of how we need to show up differently in the current fight.

[00:19:33] Fran Hutchins: I think a t, like a flashpoint for these conversations in campaigns is often around spokespeople and messaging, and I believe it’s at a certain point we can have an over-reliance on what the experts are telling us might be a good messenger, and we don’t think about the backlash or the hollow.

[00:19:53] Of a win that might happen if we don’t actually engage and empower our communities to be a part of that win. So very specifically, I’m saying, uh, there were times on the marriage, uh, trail where consultants told campaigns that they shouldn’t show gay people, um, specifically not. Like in couples, uh, you know, it should really be very sanitized.

[00:20:19] Um, you know, and some of it is actually not bad. Like some of it’s like show gay people in their families. Okay, cool. We don’t all have supportive families, but you know, it’s a nice thing to remind people that we, some of us do. Um, but I do think that like there were just times when, and this wasn’t even just during ballot measure campaigns, right?

[00:20:37] Like the marriage fight was also big public education, like big national public education campaigns. Um, it was media campaigns, things like that. And so I think that, you know, there was just this overarching sense for a while that we just weren’t welcome. Um. In our own sort of movement, in our own campaigns, like in order to convince the majority, which is straight people, to like queer people, we had to be as like sanitized and normal normative looking as possible.

[00:21:09] Um, and so, you know, and again, I don’t know the extent to which that was like one report or one memo and then it just kind of took fire or if it was just something that we liked to fight with each other about. But it definitely wasn’t, um, you know, there weren’t. Empowering messages. I, I remember the Prop eight ads, right?

[00:21:29] If, for those of you who haven’t seen the Prop eight ads, they’re woo, they’re a watch. Um, there’s one that I like to call the tampon ad, uh, which is just these two ladies with soft focus lighting, uh, sitting at a kitchen table and neither of them is gay. And, uh, they kind of like talk each other through how un uncomfy it is to think about gay people getting married.

[00:21:50] But maybe, you know, as fair-minded people, they should vote for us like it was. Really bad. Um, and that was, you know, that was considered like tested messaging. Um, one ad even had a straight person who was being stopped from getting married so that straight people could like, identify with that. Right. So we just weren’t actually putting ourselves in, um, in the campaigns and.

[00:22:14] You know, I, I don’t know. I don’t know. I’m not a message tester. I don’t know where all of that comes from, but it has a real impact on the organizing and on the community who’s involved in the campaign. And when we see ourselves in leadership in the campaign, when we see, and I would say this too, for local leaders, right?

[00:22:29] We don’t need to bring a bunch of like. Like fancy, you know, out of town people to, to run the campaign. Like the goal of us coming in should be to build that leadership of the local people. Um, you know, we can be, I, you know, my background, my role on the main campaign was largely on in the background. Um.

[00:22:47] You know, some people knew who I was, but mostly my team, right? My goal was for them to get out there and engage the community and, and build power that way. But in any case, going back to, you know, not putting ourselves in our heads, that was one. You know, just like really being afraid to show ourselves and the reality.

[00:23:05] Um. Of who we are. Uh, and I think that that’s actually, like, that’s one thing we learned. I mean, and the other big critique obviously of the marriage campaigns, and I think that there’s a little bit of a chicken and an egg situation here. Um, is that like, you know, oh, the. You know, certain, certain fancy wealthy gay people really wanted marriage, and that’s why we ended up doing this fight.

[00:23:26] You know, it, it, it ignores the truth of they actually brought us the fight, right? The opposition brought us the fight and started, uh, you know, using it as a, a turnout mechanism for conservative campaigns. So I’m not saying that there aren’t some people in the movement who had specific amounts of money or influencer power who said.

[00:23:46] Let’s go ahead and invest in this. Maybe we can win. Um, but you know, it was not an issue that we as a movement said yes, we definitely want. In fact, um, you know, at the federation where I work, when Hawaii, I believe it was, I wasn’t at the Fed yet, but this is an apocryphal story. Um, when, when Hawaii did the marriage thing and when.

[00:24:08] You know, sort of some of the national L-G-B-T-Q groups started talking about whether or not marriage should be a focus issue. Like the state groups got together and said, actually, no, like, please don’t do this to us. Like, you can’t do this to us in the south. And so, um, you know, this is not an issue that, that marriage was not an issue, that the movement chose in that way.

[00:24:27] Um, and I think a lot of people now think, for example, oh, the movement has decided. You know there, there’s a certain sector of the movement that says, oh, the movement has now decided to focus on trans young people. And it’s like, no, we are, we didn’t decide to focus on trans young people. We are gonna fight for trans young people, right?

[00:24:44] Because they’re being attacked. But that is not. The proactive vision type thing we’re trying to build, like we are trying to protect the rights that they already have because they’re being taken away. But we actually have, you know, a different agenda, um, that we’re not really able, that doesn’t have much air right now because we’re so, so on the defense.

[00:25:04] Um, so anyway, I just think like that’s one thing that people think about marriage and then I think it’s more complicated than that, but the truth is a lot of money and investment. Went into the marriage fight once it got going. Um, and then that really foreclosed investment in, and investment investment in and organizing around other issues, um, which we’re now, I think you can see, uh, bearing the brunt of, uh, around trans rights.

[00:25:29] So for example, non-discrimination. If, uh, if, if more states had done, like for example, Minnesota, uh, in the eighties and put non-discrimination. In their constitutions. Uh, we would be in a different place, I think, right now in the world. Uh, but instead we were really focusing on fighting, um, you know, the marriage fight in the early two thousands, then eventually winning it, uh, in the mid, uh, teens.

[00:25:54] So

[00:25:55] Caroline Sanchez-Avakian: thanks for that Hutch. Um, I was struck earlier what you said about, um, those campaign messages and seemingly very misguided ads. Um, so it made me think a little bit about. The stories and messages that you found that really resonated with folks during the campaign. Maybe you can share a little bit about what some of those resonating messages that were right with the right people in front of audiences and in front of their communities.

[00:26:22] What did that look like?

[00:26:23] Fran Hutchins: It is only recently that, and especially in the research we’ve done on how to talk about and how to be more persuasive around trans identities. That we’ve really come to the conclusion and agreement as a movement that we do want to put ourselves in, in our campaigns. Um, and so, you know, I’m, I’m trying to, now that I’m telling you the story of these marriage ads, like, I’m trying to think of a marriage ad that had like a.

[00:26:50] Really happy couple. And I can’t think of one, that doesn’t mean there’s not any, I just can’t think of one. The best ad that we had though, as I mentioned, like one of the best spokespeople on our campaign in 2012 was a grandfather of a lesbian. Um, and actually like, she was in the commercial, so it wasn’t like she wasn’t there.

[00:27:08] Um, but he was like. 90, I think. Um, and you know, was just saying like, it’s a value of Mainers to accept and love our families. And this is my family. I’ve got four generations of my family here and my, my granddaughter Katie is a lesbian and I want her to get married. You know, it was, it was very simple message, very sweet.

[00:27:27] Um, but very much like, you know, these folks are a part of our family and I support that. Um, but he was, he was literally the best, I think at one point. Um. Harlan, his name was Harlan, and he became the mc of DC Pride that that year, and it was adorable. Um, but yeah, that, again, that wasn’t just like a gay pub couple thing that, that they wanted to get married.

[00:27:49] But when we’ve now done more research into how to talk about and how to, um, reduce prejudice, uh, around trans identities, um, actually what we’ve found is. Yes, actually having trans folks in those ads and delivering those messages, um, is really important. And I also wanna say too, like it’s not just about ads.

[00:28:10] Ads is like one place that it’s really visible and shows up. It’s also about campaign leadership. It’s also about leadership development at the ground level. Uh, one of the things that we’re doing right now, we have, um. A project where we’re doing more deep canvassing around trans identity and gender identity in general, um, in three or four states right now.

[00:28:32] And we have a whole, um, trans advisory council that is, uh, like helping us. Look at the findings and digest them and talk about how to communicate them and really overseeing the whole project, uh, as well as a majority of the people who are working on the project are trans. Um, and everyone in a decision making, uh, decision making role is trans.

[00:28:52] And so, you know, that is. That’s just different. Like we hadn’t done that before and I think, you know, when I think about it, it’s like, oh, that should be the gold standard. But it’s because we learned, like we’ve learned along the way that we don’t, you know, the way that these decisions get made is that we aren’t in the room and so we have to build the room, we have to build the campaigns, and we have to build the leadership of people to be able to take that on.

[00:29:16] Chris Melody Fields Figueredo: Yeah, I mean, I’m just, I mean, I think the three of us, we, we’ve been in the biz for a minute and just listening to you, just thinking about how much has shifted in the 25 years that I’ve been in organizing, um, and, and campaign and, and political work and communications work, right? Where, and I think about this in the context of.

[00:29:39] Repro in the last couple of reproductive, um, freedom in the last couple years for, you know, the, the, the experts, the, the, those who had the most power said, you can’t, couldn’t say the word abortion, right? Don’t say abortion in your, don’t say the word abortion. Don’t say abortion

[00:29:56] Fran Hutchins: in your abortion campaign.

[00:29:57] And I

[00:29:59] Chris Melody Fields Figueredo: remember so many of the stories. From the 2024 campaigns and it obviously it built in in the others, but especially in the Latina community that I’m a part of, right? There was just like this assumption that you cannot. We’re too Catholic, we’re too, um, we’re, you know, there’s too much machismo in our community.

[00:30:20] You cannot, you cannot talk about this within our community. And I remember so many stories of abuelita, like sharing their abortion stories that they never would’ve shared before, or fathers saying, you know, this, I ha I, I want to protect my daughter. I, I know this is a healthcare decision for her. And so just listening to you.

[00:30:44] Talk about we make these assumptions because of our opposition or people who we think are un persuadable, right? Yeah. That’s it. Um, like with marriage equality, we have to convince the straight people that we have rights that we should be able to love who we love and, and be in a partnership in a union together, right?

[00:31:05] And, and be, be married. And we don’t start from us, our community. Are people, but I feel, I do feel this is starting to change. It’s starting to shift and, and still we have to fight to, even like in this work, you, especially if you’re a person of color or a queer person or, or from any marginalized community, like the gaslighting of sometimes yourself.

[00:31:34] Fran Hutchins: Right,

[00:31:35] Chris Melody Fields Figueredo: right.

[00:31:35] Fran Hutchins: I mean, yeah. I mean, listen, we, um, there’s an apocryphal story about the marriage movement, which I will tell, but also I will say, again, I was just an organizer. Um, so I wasn’t making these decisions, but there was a precipitous shift in our message frame between the 2009 campaign and the 2012 campaign in Maine.

[00:31:55] And between 2009 and 2012, there weren’t any really big marriage campaigns. So there was a lot of time to do research. And I think at, at the certain point, they looked back from 2009 back to the beginning and then they looked forward. But the apocryphal story is they’ve polled straight people and they asked straight people why they wanted, why they thought queer people wanted to get married.

[00:32:17] And straight people said, for health insurance and benefits and rights, and. And et cetera, et cetera. And then they asked, you know, straight people why they got married and you know, they said love and commitment. And, uh, it turns out that like we had been telling them that like, that’s why they thought that is because we kept telling them that like, we couldn’t get insurance and that’s why we wanted to get married.

[00:32:44] Um, and so it’s like you have to be really careful about, mm-hmm. Narratives you’re putting out there. They just thought we wanted marriage for a different, they didn’t wanna get married for insurance. That was just the thing that happened when they got married. But they knew we wanted to get married for insurance.

[00:32:57] And so that was, that’s, you know, that’s the apocryphal story. But the real thing that I know, ’cause I was part of it, was then the message frame shift. Like, how did we literally change, like our campaign materials, our scripts, our mailers, our ads, it, it went from talking about rights and responsibilities of marriage.

[00:33:13] Uh, I mean there was like an, I think there was an ad. In California that listed like the number, like how many rights? And it was like, oh, we need a thousand rights or so I was, you know, it’s like, who cares about that? That’s not a real story anyway. Um, and then shifting it to talking about, you know, why people actually wanted to get married, which was love and commitment and you know, and that became part of our messaging frame and field as well.

[00:33:35] We would ask people at the doors like, are you married? Tell me why you got married. Right? So like asking people to sort of. Access that, that piece. Um, and yeah, I mean, it is just really funny to think like, we didn’t, you know, we didn’t go to, maybe, maybe they didn’t go to gay people. I don’t know. Like, again, I wasn’t, I was an organizer, but maybe they didn’t go to gay people and say, why do you wanna get married?

[00:33:56] So we actually started our recent campaign, the, our recent, uh, project where we’re doing the deep canvassing around gender identity with talking to a broad swath of trans folks across the country and like asking them, how do you talk about your identity? Like, where are you incurring? Actual problems, like where have you had success?

[00:34:14] Um, and like starting there and saying, you know, instead of, you know, imagining like a trans person, you know, that. You know, we actually started with real trans people. So that was like an interesting way, I think of, again, centering ourselves in the campaign rather than, uh, assuming, like you said, like assuming that people can’t handle it, you know, assuming it’s like no, people handle it every day.

[00:34:37] Like trans people are out in this, you know, out in these streets, having jobs, having kids. Talking to the PTA, going to the school board meeting, um, you know, just as regular people, not activists, like, and so it’s like we’ve gotta talk to folks in the community and say like, what is your experience like?

[00:34:53] And that’s, you know, I think that also goes to the idea of, um, you know, the local, the power of, of the local power and how we have to build local power. Um, and, and durable power, I think is, is the phrase used at the beginning. How do we build more durable power? And that’s. By empowering people at the local level, right?

[00:35:10] It’s not just people in DC or just like people who are running around running campaigns, but the people who are there every day. Um. You know, I think back to one thing that was great about the main campaign, by the way, is that it was really long. I know that like there’s in, in ballot measure land, if I tell you that 11 months is the gold standard, you know, based on the main campaign for like 11 months campaign.

[00:35:32] Um, but we started early, like we were on doors, I believe, I’m trying to remember my first visit up there, but Amy Meow, um, was running doors and phones in the deep winter in Maine in like January. Um, and so, you know, that was. Uh, we started early, which gave us a lot of lead time to build a big volunteer program, um, to get really expert canvassers, like the folks who, there were people who started the campaign with us in January and who were there until election day, um, as every day.

[00:36:03] That was their, you know, paid canvassers. Um, and then building a huge volunteer team. And building leadership in the state. You know, I think back about what my team looked like. I had six different counties and, uh, one of my county organizers is now still an organizer for HRC. Um, as I mentioned, my deputy.

[00:36:24] Uh, and all these are local people from Maine. Um, you know, my deputy now runs the C3, uh, table in Maine. Coed. I think, um, we’ve got, yeah, it’s just like we, we built local leadership. We gave people a chance to like learn campaign roles and jobs. Yeah. Um, you know, whether it was organizing or campaign finance or, you know, anything like that.

[00:36:45] And, um, oh yeah. And one of my, one of my, my campaign finance guy, the guy who like literally had the. You know, the envelope of a thousand dollars in cash and would drive it down to the main office. He’s just, uh, put in to run for office in his, uh, local town. So, you know, it’s, it’s, these are, these are things that, you know, I think if you come in and do, uh, a two month campaign, you just don’t get those kind types of outcomes.

[00:37:07] Chris Melody Fields Figueredo: Yeah, well, BIS would agree with you that that is the gold standard. That is what, how we are trying to orient folks towards right. To have a a longer on-ramp. To start early, especially if you want it to be community driven and if you wanna invest in that local leadership and leave ultimately something behind.

[00:37:27] Right. That last, yeah. I mean, I think I’ve said it almost every episode over and beyond that campaign. Like that’s, that’s what we’re tr That’s movement building. Right, exactly. We know, we know what a campaign is, we know that it ends, but something has to, um, last beyond that, knowing what you know now and thinking about the context that we’re in right now, right where we are on defense.

[00:37:52] Right. Especially when we’re talking about the fight for trans folks. Right. Um, and, um, you know, thinking about the work that BIS and Equality Federation is doing right now, not just between lgbtq plus organizations Right. Also our, our friends and, and the reproductive rights movement. Knowing what you know now and as we are in this current fight and we’re trying to dream beyond, right?

[00:38:21] We’re trying to, to really go to this more bodily autonomy framework, what do you think is important for, you know, listeners to know, especially if you’re trying to get started in this work?

[00:38:33] Fran Hutchins: That was not the question I thought you were gonna ask, but I do like I, because I thinks part of it, you can also answer

[00:38:37] Chris Melody Fields Figueredo: whatever you wanna answer as well.

[00:38:39] Fran Hutchins: Give us more answers. Do what

[00:38:40] Chris Melody Fields Figueredo: you answer the question that was formulating in your head. Um, yeah, I

[00:38:44] Fran Hutchins: was formulating, I was formulating a question about, um, about that coalition actually, because I think it’s really important.

[00:38:51] Chris Melody Fields Figueredo: Yep. Yeah.

[00:38:52] Fran Hutchins: Yeah. So I mean, we’re working, we’re working with this, um, on this rising together coalition around bodily autonomy and.

[00:39:00] It’s very well timed. Like I said, we’ve got lots of lead time before we’ve got some of these big joint ballot measures or ballot measures that are gonna be running concurrently. And I think that like we need to start having these conversations now, both at the national level and at the state level.

[00:39:16] It’s so, so important and I think that like it serves that purpose of doing the, mm-hmm. Like building that infrastructure, hopefully where people are working together at that state level. You know, my, my current like, I guess vision or dream for what? Gets us out of this whole, especially on, um, these bodily autonomy issues.

[00:39:40] It it is that it has to be a broad based coalition. It can’t even just be, I mean, I think that functionally the one we’re building together is, is extremely well timed and needs to happen, but it can’t just be. You know, oh no, they’re taking healthcare away from trans kids. And so we all run around and, you know, work on this one issue, or, oh no, they’re coming for abortion care.

[00:40:00] Um, it’s, it’s, they’re coming for all of our care. Everything, right? They’re coming for care for low income people. Uh, even though it’s not a huge expense, they’re coming for, you know, care for immigrant folks. Uh, they’re coming for care for, uh, for trans folks, both young people and everybody.

[00:40:17] Chris Melody Fields Figueredo: Everybody’s on the chop block right now for veterans.

[00:40:19] Fran Hutchins: Everybody’s healthcare is on the chopping block, and I’m not, you know, it, it’s, it’s just, it’s, I’m not even just talking about funding. Funding is one thing, but then actually restricting care is another, and they’re doing both of it. They’re taking it from all angles. And so in order to actually. Uh, win. I think we have to get together, first of all, and we also have to be able to cast a, a vision that is a little bit longer term than just, Hey, we wanna win this ballot measure.

[00:40:45] Or, Hey, we want to defeat this ballot measure. It’s that we’ve gotta figure out how healthcare for our whole country, right? And we’ve gotta come together and say, this is really not working. This thing that you’re doing where you’re trying to take away this one specific type of healthcare, this is bogus.

[00:41:01] Like, we’ve gotta get through this and we’re gonna fight it. But after it, we’ve gotta come together and say, this is our vision for what healthcare should look like in our country. And we’ve gotta find the people who are gonna back us on that. We’ve gotta, you know, find, uh, I would say. You know, and this is sort of outside of my political world, we’ve gotta find like, what are the ways that we’re we, you know, that we provide our own care in certain circumstances?

[00:41:25] Um, like how do the community keep the community safe? I think about my friend Mandisa, uh, more O’Neill, who after Katrina was part of setting up a feminist. Uh, health clinic in New Orleans, right? Like, you know, not a medical professional, but really helped organize the community to get health needs met, um, and to, to match people with medical care.

[00:41:43] So how are we doing that in this moment? Like, what do we build now to help us get through this? And what is our vision for the longer term around healthcare? And not just this one bat, ma, I know that’s how you think. I mean, I know that’s, that’s your brain. We’ve talked about this, but it’s. You know, so I think it’s, it’s incremental in that we have to start building these relationships, you know, coming together in coalitions using ballot measures as an opportunity to do some of that field building and to, you know, create some of those connections that will ultimately allow, uh, that broader vision to come together.

[00:42:14] Caroline Sanchez-Avakian: Hutch, we’ve talked a lot already about how the rising state of authoritarianism in this country, and it feels like we’re moving closer and closer to it every single day. And we are living in a time when democracy and ballot measures and rights that we thought we won are under these attacks. Yeah.

[00:42:31] Unprecedentedly. Um, what are your thoughts on ways to combat these attacks? What messages do you feel are critical or important for people to hear at this moment? I

[00:42:43] Fran Hutchins: mean, I think the most important thing for people to hear, probably not I, I mean probably not the audience for this podcast. Um, but I mean, I think that we need to be finding more ways to get people who are not currently politically active.

[00:42:55] Into the pipeline of being active and what does that look like? Maybe a campaign, right? Like maybe a ballot measure campaign is a good place to do that. Um, you know, and that’s when I was like, sort of going back to what I talked about at the very beginning of this, uh, episode is. You know, I learned as a development person the importance of organizations.

[00:43:15] And listen, I don’t think organizations are the movement. Like that’s not, that’s not it. But we right now have, uh, the administration coming after organizations and that’s because they know that organizations. Anchor a movement. Organizations create a, a coalescing point for people, you know, organizations activate people and create organizers.

[00:43:35] And, you know, we’ve, that’s what needs to happen. Like that movement that, that part of the movement, the organizations, the sector, if you will, has to be strengthened, has to be, has to make it through and survive. Um, this. Era of authoritarianism. So we have to protect ourselves, we have to protect our organizations, and if we can’t protect our organizations, then we have to protect the work that’s happening inside.

[00:43:59] So like, I wanna see the whole sector coming together right now to make sure that the work lives on. If somebody specifically gets targeted. Um, you know, I think that we’ve gotta see, uh, you know, so I, I think that that’s part of it is keeping organizations alive. Um, and through this. Through this particular moment.

[00:44:17] Um, another thing around authoritarianism that I think is, you know, just crucial, um, well, I mean first it’s the people. We’ve gotta get people engaged. We need organizations to do that. And then the last piece is we have to be able to articulate as this movement, um, you know, against authoritarianism, what we actually want to build.

[00:44:37] Uh, you know, I hear a lot of people saying. We’ve gotta fight authoritarianism. And I mean, I think yes, absolutely. Um, but to what end, right. I don’t think any of us were super happy with the status quo, like where we were at a, a year ago. Um, and you know, we’ve gotta figure out how do we actually build? And I think, I mean, listen, I think that like, you know, I’m not an optimist.

[00:45:01] Um, I have resolve, uh, I am, uh, not hopeful, but I have commitment. Um, and so I think that there are ways that we make it through this, um, stronger and more connected. Doesn’t mean it’s not gonna be painful, doesn’t mean that things aren’t gonna feel different. Uh, but I think that there are. Uh, there are ways that if we can come together and the coalitions that we build, the relationships that we build, um, the ways that we, uh, become more, uh, politically educated, uh, during this time can help us, you know, build for the future together and help us, you know, help that broader vision that I was talking about earlier.

[00:45:40] Uh, rather than just getting stuck in and playing on the field that they’re building for us around these like single issue fights where they’re really, I mean, functionally trying to divide us.

[00:45:50] Chris Melody Fields Figueredo: Yeah, you, it’s making me think. Um, so at the time of this recording, it’ll, it’ll air in a couple of weeks. You know, we just lost Miss Ma Major became, um, uh, an ancestor in the quote that I keep seeing on social media is I don’t need their permission to exist.

[00:46:06] I exist in spite of them. Right. And I think that’s mm-hmm. So true for the moment that we are in, like, I don’t need your permission to say that I need, I as a queer Latina who’s an immigrant. You don’t have to tell me I exist. I’m here. I live my life.

[00:46:23] Fran Hutchins: I don’t need your permission, actually. I don’t

[00:46:24] Chris Melody Fields Figueredo: need your permission.

[00:46:25] And, and I think we all, especially in these times, need to have that radical Yeah. It’s that radical. Like, yes, I’m here. I’m enough, I’m worthy. You don’t have to tell me I am, but I’m going to Damn well work so hard. Yeah. To make sure that that’s right. Not just me, but everybody else. Yeah. Has the feels like they, they have the right to exist.

[00:46:47] Fran Hutchins: Yeah. And Caroline, you mentioned earlier, uh, you know, what are more antidotes to authoritarianism? Um, you know, our friends, Zoe Marks and Erica Chenowith tell us that building alternative institutions are one way. And I mentioned, uh, some of that earlier, but I mean, miss Major is, I mean, just the most inspirational example, right?

[00:47:07] You know, the house of Gigi is. Exactly that. It’s what does my community need? Yep. And I’m gonna build it. Right. Not waiting for permission, not waiting for a campaign, not waiting for a nonprofit to say, or for a philanthropy to say, here’s, you know, your big grant. Yep. It’s like I’m gonna build this. And, you know, for me, as somebody who works in a movement organization, you know, I, I have a job, I have a role.

[00:47:30] I have a lane. I want to be really good at it. I believe the mission of our organization is very, very important. I also know it’s not the only thing, right? I also know that that like us alone, like the state-based movement and the existence of our organizations alone, does not change the entire life of trans people and queer people on the ground.

[00:47:49] It’s one important part. It’s the policy piece, it’s the organizing piece, but things like, uh, the House of Gigi, I mean, that’s just like, again, what does my community need? I am gonna build that. I don’t need permission. Um, and that is, you know, if we think about what Norma Wong talks about, the full spectrum of organizing, it’s not just about, uh, you know, that political piece.

[00:48:11] It’s not just about that long range vision piece. It’s also about, you know, making sure that the people who are here right now are being taken care of. So yeah, rest in power.

[00:48:20] Caroline Sanchez-Avakian: 100% and it’s that grit that keeps us going. But hu she also mentioned about bringing people, new people into the fold if we’re going to be fighting this for the long haul.

[00:48:31] Right. So in thinking about those new folks coming into the movement, a lot of them are younger, right? Um, not all of them, but many of them are thankfully. Um, ’cause it’s a new generation. But what is. Say one piece of advice that you’d give someone just beginning their career in advocacy and or politics.

[00:48:49] And on the flip side of that, what is something that’s important for more seasoned folks like you to know or to be open to?

[00:48:56] Fran Hutchins: I mean, what I would say, and maybe I don’t have to say this to young people ’cause I actually feel like maybe they teach me this. Um, but what I would say to young people is pace yourself.

[00:49:04] Like we are actually, uh, you know, if I, if I think about like, even just, um, you know, different sort of slices of movement history. If we think about like 2000 to 2012, right? So that’s like more than a decade. That’s how long it took us to win one. At the ballot on marriage. Right. And that was what most people consider really fast.

[00:49:31] Um, and then if you think about like with HIV, right? You know, starting with ACT Up in the eighties in New York and the tag, the treatment access group, uh, you know, really wanting to have a cure for HIV and visioning that in the eighties, right? We’re about two years out now from a once a year, uh, prep injection, which is not a cure, but it is a really, yeah, a huge advancement so that once a year people can take, um, a prep shot and be protected from, from HIV and that’s, you know.

[00:50:10] 40 years, right? And so pace yourself, right? We can’t burn out on this. We’re not gonna win this, uh, in the next presidential election, right? This thing that we’re fighting, authoritarianism is not about one political party or one election cycle. Um, trans rights is not gonna be won or lost next year, right?

[00:50:32] We’ve got years and years and years to do this, and. We’ve gotta pace ourselves. I mean, and I, this is advice I would give my younger self, like driving around in, in my car with yard signs and clipboards and not sleeping or sleeping on someone’s couch for months. Like not a good idea. I wish I could go back and do that differently.

[00:50:52] Yeah. Um. So eating maybe some healthy-ish foods, maybe some healthy foods, maybe some time off, maybe, uh, maybe PTO. Right? You know, let’s, let’s not get greedy. Um, but yeah, it was, it was a different time. Um, it was a different time when I was on the campaign circuit, and I’m actually glad that, you know, that is actually one thing I would say that, uh, the young folks have taught us.

[00:51:13] Um, I mean, I don’t know, it was people of my generation as well who are organizing for better campaign working conditions. Um, so, you know, that’s. That is hopefully, uh, changing a little bit, at least in some circles. Uh, I can’t promise that political parties are listening, but, uh, hopefully some of our, uh, movement campaigns are gonna do a little bit better.

[00:51:31] Oh, advice for more seasoned folks. Uh, pace yourself. Yeah. We, I mean, this is the thing, like I’m coming up on 50 and I, you know, I still have plenty of working years and so I have to figure out what it is that, um, you know, that I want to do. I mean, and I will say this, like I’ve seen, uh, we’ve had a big changeover in leadership in the L-G-B-T-Q movement in the last, say, four or five years.

[00:51:55] And maybe that happens, you know, every four or five years. I don’t know. But like when it happened, uh, right around COVID, I think a lot of leaders said, you know what, I’m, this is not for me anymore. Like, this is really, really difficult in a way that I’m not used to, and I am gonna move on and do something different.

[00:52:10] And I think that, like, we’ve gotta pay attention to that for ourselves too. Like what are, you know, where are limits and understanding where. Our limits are even in leadership. So it’s not, I’m not saying people who have left their jobs because of COVID have nothing to give to the movement. Of course they do.

[00:52:25] Of course they have other things to give, but it wasn’t what they wanted to be doing right then. It wasn’t the thing that was best for them. And, you know, it’s, it’s important to be able to step away and understand that that’s not like the end of your career. Um, like we’ve gotta, we’ve gotta find ways. I mean, and I will say too, like I’ve been to a number of events where I was looking around, I was like, where are the elders?

[00:52:47] You know, like, I really actually wanna see the elders. Um, and you know, I don’t want people, so I would say also for, for the more seasoned professionals, like, don’t disappear. Yeah. Like, understand that like your relevance changes you, whether you know where, where, when, and how you should be leading changes.

[00:53:05] But we’ve gotta figure out like, you know, how do we keep sharing and how do we keep. Being available for and mentoring the movement, um, but also understanding that it has to change. Uh, and you know, the good news is like, I haven’t gotten a ton of pushback from funders or partners or, um, you know, I guess movement elders about like the way that we’ve started, uh, building our deep canvassing project, which is essentially a campaign, you know, and building in trans leadership and build, you know.

[00:53:36] I haven’t gotten a lot of pushback, like some questions about why are you doing messaging research this way? Or like, you know, what’s that about? But, you know, nothing that’s sort of like, well, that’s not how we did it in our day. So, you know, and, and I do talk to elders and there are people I trust. And so I think that it’s, it’s about being available for, and not, you know, foreclosing on it because it was just not the way that you used to do it.

[00:53:55] Uh, but still being available, um, to be a part of the movement. Don’t, don’t just leave us.

[00:54:01] Chris Melody Fields Figueredo: It’s so true. I mean, I, I remember, I, I, I joke that I’m in my Auntie Ra era and, uh, same, you know, like getting to be on a panel with Bob Moses, like, here’s like a person in the civil rights movement. Like, and just to be like learning from, uh, Bob Moses.

[00:54:22] And also like, getting to share my own reflections too, uh, uh, of the, the, the, the moment that we’re, well, this was like. Five, seven, maybe eight years ago, but right, like the, the importance of having that generational partnership in this work is, is so important, especially in these times, because authoritarianism may feel new to a lot of folks, but there have been authoritarian moments throughout our history.

[00:54:51] Fran Hutchins: Yep, this is true. This is true.

[00:54:54] Chris Melody Fields Figueredo: Sanction violence is not a new thing. Right? Um, uh, so anyways, as we close, um, a, a question that I ask every guest, um, and in the call to action Bsca for our partners is to make about measures, love letters. To our people. You’ve heard me say this, how has the work that you have done been a love letter to your people?

[00:55:20] Fran Hutchins: So I actually have a visual in my head right now, and this is something that we did in 2012 in Maine and it recently, I was pulling it up to use in a lecture and I actually had seen that my staff had started doing it at. This at this other event. I was like, oh, we’re doing it still. Um, and so when we would do every single event on the 2012 main campaign, we would draw a big heart, a big empty heart on a flip chart, and we would ask people like, who are you doing this work for?

[00:55:51] Hmm. And we would write the names of the people. And we had an entire gallery from the beginning of the campaign to the end in our hallway. We called it the make It Real hallway. Um, and I mean, I think that that’s it. It’s like we. We’re doing that work, we’ve been doing that work for those people. Right?

[00:56:10] For those people often who were us, right? Sometimes I was flipping back through the gallery. I saw my name in there, I saw my staff’s names, I saw our volunteers names. But we were doing that for us. We were doing it for our people. Um, and you know, that’s, I think that is it. Like that is the love letter.

[00:56:28] Like that is, you know, being there and watching. And I will say, I will share this moment. Um. When we won, I, and again, I was not in the Portland office, I wasn’t in the big city office with the, you know, the big hotel ballroom. We were at the Irish pub in downtown. Oh, I’d rather be there, I believe. Yeah. Um, we were in, I think we were in Bangor.

[00:56:49] We were in downtown Bangor in the Irish pub and. Just seeing like I was the only person from away at that point. If you look at the pictures, like, you know, I was one of the only people who was like from the campaign, uh, at that party and just watching everybody break down and scream and cry and, um, understand that we had won was probably one of the best moments of my life because again, because we had done it for ourselves.

[00:57:15] Um, and we have not yet replicated that. I still believe though, that we’re gonna get to that moment. I don’t know when it’s gonna be. I might be one of the elder elders, uh, but we’re gonna get to that moment on trans rights where we have a big win that feels really significant and that feels like we did it for ourselves and with our community.

[00:57:33] Um, and so I’m gonna just keep writing, keep writing those love letters.

[00:57:38] Caroline Sanchez-Avakian: That’s beautiful. Hutch, thank you so much for joining us today on this podcast. And if you’re interested in the work that Hutch and Equality Federation are doing, you can learn [email protected] and we’ll make sure to include that link in our show notes as well.

[00:57:55] Thank you again, Hutch. Thanks for listening to the Direct Democracy Diaries. If you enjoy today’s episode, leave us a message on our socials at ballot strategy and check out our [email protected] for more updates, insights, research, and so much more.

[00:58:11] Chris Melody Fields Figueredo: Can’t wait to see you next time. Keep fighting for change, one ballot at a time.